1829 Federal in TN

Good Morning,

We are brand new to this web site and to owning a historic home. We are still in the inspection process of the purchase. The home is in middle Tn an original L shaped Federal with a couple of additions. As we proceed with the inspection information we seemed almost overwhelmed with the scope of the repairs and the always changing opinions of others as far as how we should proceed.

Without bogging down anyone I do have a couple of questions. Currently the heat in the home is electric & gas wall heaters. Are they fairly efficient? No aircondiioning. We are meeting with a foundation engineer this week. Since being built in 1829 the foundation has sunk 9". Primarily due to differential setteling in a back corner of the home. As a result there are cracks in the brick and mortar outside and inside walls. After speaking with this man he said statistically this home will continue to sink a 1/2 inch every decade. With that being said he said he did not feel jacking the home was the answer. If we wanted to pursue fixing the problem he recommended drilling into the ground until they hit rock then putting in a support. As far as cost he said it could be all over the place. He said it would be up to us if we wanted to proceed but did not feel this was a deal breaker on the home. Can I get your opinions please.

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Permalink Reply by Lair Tienter on February 9, 2012 at 11:44am

If the house has sunk that much and has not fallen in I think that is a good sign. It has been my observation whenever there is settling you can look outside and you will find a down spout dumping water on the ground. You need to get all water away from the foundation that usually stops it. Also when talking to inspectors you have to listen to what they are saying. You will always hear "you need this done" because that is how they make their living. Some things need to be done and some things you can live with if it does not get any worse. I have known a lot of first timers who were sold a whole lot of things they didn't need to have done. Just give it a lot of thought before you put your name on the dotted line. It is a good thing to get several opinions from several contractors. You can learn a whole lot just listening to them. Lots of luck with your new venture and welcome. This is a good place to be and ask questions when starting out. Lair

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Permalink Reply by Franz on February 9, 2012 at 10:42pm

Based only on the information you've posted my feeling is you aren't near ready to buy this house.

Electric and gas wall units may well be efficient, the question is are they cost effective. Your first step should be contacting both the electric and gas supplier so you can look at 3 years of consumption. Balance that against the current costs of both and you'll have an idea of what it will cost to heat the house.

The foundation issue - first thing I'd do is fire the so called "engineer" because he sure ain't working for you. Drilling and or mud jacking are both very expensive ways to deal with a sinking building.

What you need to know is what is under the foundation, and how the foundation and basement walls are built. Many houses of that timeframe weren't built with any consideration to subsoil, and often the foundation is little more than a trench filled with uncleaned fieldstone slurried with whatever passed for concrete in that area.

Details are important in making any determination, and you haven't provided many.

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Permalink Reply by Mary on February 10, 2012 at 2:10pm

I am from Nashville. I would LOVE to own a home from this time period. But it can be complicated.

Contact Belle Meade Plantation(1820 - 1883), the Carter House (1830), The Hermitage(1819-1821), Travelers Rest(1799), James K Polk house (1818 and 1820)....... they can all send you in the right direction. Historic restrictions are not real common but they do exist in some areas. Oh, and talk with the neighbors about their houses and the dirt and the water quality, etc.

I believe all counties in Tennessee have building codes departments.. Talk with codes. Talk with historic preservation specialists. Some codes people are really knowledgeable about old houses and grandfather clauses, some, not so much. Spend the time and the money talking with these folks before you start work. If the house was built of local brick you have to understand that local brick in MidTN is somewhat different from local brick made in Kentucky or Ohio, meaning, not all common historic practices may apply here.

9inch foundation problems - that is a really big problem. However, you said that the house is an "L" shape - is it possible that the house was built in two sections? Is it possible that one section has an adequate foundation with minimal settling and the other section of the house has most of the problems? That would make a difference in the cost of repairs. Repairs on the foundation will depend on where you are in MidTN - there is such a variation in the dirt (good farm land vs rocky, underground water movement, sink holes and suprise, a cave). But yeah, since you have sunk so much, you need to get to a solid rock. Owners of 'plantation houses' are often happy to talk about the work they did on their houses if you approach them politely. Talk with codes and specialists, do not just listen to the contractor. You may have a contractor who knows what to do, but this is the foundation of your old, expensive house - get a 2nd opinion from someone who is not looking for work from you-talk with a professional. Many problems can be grandfathered in, but that is up to the codes department. It may also be possible to live in one section of the house while repairing the other side. You may also be able to divide up the work, one section of the house at a time.

Electric wall heaters - are these the heaters inserted into the wall that have electrical coils that glow? Personally, I would get rid of these completely. You can also have them physically unwired and leave them in the wall if you do not want to patch a big hole in the wall. They are not considered safe. 1. They get hot and you can get burned by touching them. 2. They get hot and items nearby can get too hot and catch fire. Also, since the knobs to turn them on and off is usually on the front of the unit, it is possible to bump into the unit and accidentally turn the unit on and not know it. Do not trust that something can be done at the fuse box to cut these off, get them unwired. Do not just have the knobs taken off, have them unwired properly.Frankly, I do not know if codes even allows these to be used anymore.

Gas wall heaters - are these similar to the ones you see at Home Depot or Lowes that usually burn propane (you see the blue flame)? If so, as long as they are inspected and working properly, they are OK. I am unfamiliar with other gas wall heaters.

Efficiency of electric or gas wall heaters? I don't know. The advantage is that they only heat one room.

-Check for radon gas - this is a problem in some parts of TN, KY.

Termites and dry rot are also a problem. Did I mention snakes in the attic?????? Before you start work, bug bomb everywhere, house, basement, attic, fireplaces, outbuildings, crawlspaces, everywhere. bug bombs won't hurt snakes or raccoons, but they will kill black widows and brown recluses. You are in Middle Tennessee, you have black widows and brown recluses. If the house has been empty, you may need to bug bomb more than once. You will have to physically remove the snakes.

City water and sewer or well water and septic? How old is the plumbing? Any lead used? If city water, how old is your water main from the house out to the city connection (often called 'the street'). If well water, have you had it tested?

The roof?

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If it was my house?

-With a 9inch foundation problem, I would think real hard about walking away. That is huge. Plus, it is not just foundation repairs you will be making. The rest of the house has been affected - beams may be twisted, floor joists may not be properly supported, "jacking up" the house to level it may crack beams, rafters, brick walls, plaster, windows, etc.

-I would want to completely rewire the house, all of it. I have lived in houses with all knob and tube (don't ask how old I am), and mix of knob and tube and standard/modern. I really like to be safe - modern wiring is safe. Make sure that all the wiring is modern - not just modern wiring at the light switch and then knob and tube inside the walls (I have seen this in every old house I have lived in). Mice and rates like to chew electrical wire.

-Heat and Air. You can stick with gas wall heaters, but I would want central HVAC. There are systems specially designed for old houses that cannot accomodate standard ducting. You can also look into radiant floor heating. Fireplace inserts are an option if the fireplaces can handle them. Air conditioning, for me, is a must. MidTN will have summers in the 80-90's with high humidity for several months, and August and September will have 90 -100's with high humidity. Thick brick walls and high ceilings will help keep you cool, but, really, are you that much of a back-to-nature person that you don't want a/c? Make sure you learn about the effect that a/c will have on the house. Window units are ugly but can be a less expensive option.

-I would get some continued advice from an old house specialist in the area, but remember, you must also deal with the local codes department. And, important to remember, each county has its own codes department. What will pass in Sumner County may not pass in Wilson County. An old house specialist, or contractor, can help you communicate with the codes department, and many problems may be 'grandfathered in' (meaning you don't HAVE to fix them, they are considered historical and part of the charm of the house), but the final decision is always up to the codes department. Do not mess with the codes guys. ALWAYS get permits, ALWAYS post permits properly. If your contractor says you don't need a permit, check with codes. Again, do not mess with the codes guys.

-have the fireplaces inspected, including the foundation for the fireplace. foundations are often bad and old brick has deteriorated. Fixing this can be as simple as adding a new fireplace lining, but could include taking the whole thing down and rebuilding. - this is a safety thing. You want your family safe and if you want to use the fireplaces you do not want your house to burn down, and you do not want bricks falling on anyone's head.

All of this is going to cost you A LOT of money. Tennessee has some fantastic houses. If I had the money I would be very tempted. I would also want to use a general contractor who is responsible for pulling permits, etc. Make sure all contractors are licensed and insured. Many good craftsmen are not licensed - let the general contractor hire them under his insurance if possible. Unless you are very experienced in general contracting in the state of TN, get licensed and insured contractors only for anything more than wallpaper. Any contactor that you hire thru Home Depot is licensed and insured. The adage that says "take the price and double it" really does apply here. It is possible to get into this project and run out of money, leaving you broke and without a place to live.

This period of home is absolutely my dream home. Good luck.

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Permalink Reply by Randall Marder on February 11, 2012 at 9:58pm

All the structural repairs that I have done with the Colorado State Historic Fund, we never once had to go to that extreme with foundation structural repairs. The deepest I ever had to dig to stabilize any building was 16" deep by 18" wide in which I poured a new pad.

As mention below by Lair, changing the existing grade back to the original grade would be your first step.

In the pictures included, I saved all the brick, which was clean and reused. Behind the brick is a new treated lumber cripple wall. Some projects I use block instead of wood. Those projects did not have basements, they had cellars. The projects with full basements, I would build a inner structural wall to support the house than remove the foundation per section (one side at a time) and rebuild, pour, etc.

Yours

Randall Marder

www.rmdesignconst.com

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